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Post by honkey on Sept 21, 2012 20:08:16 GMT 2
My point was clearly above your head.. There is the same science and progression. Vs religion being corrupted around the same point in the life span of the religion and we are seeing similar conflicts.
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homer
Forum elite
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Post by homer on Sept 21, 2012 22:53:07 GMT 2
Everything is corruptible, shall we then say everything is bad?
nope,
note this isn't in response to anything that was said I just posted this to be bored.
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Post by guest on Sept 21, 2012 22:57:03 GMT 2
My point was clearly above your head.. There is the same science and progression. Vs religion being corrupted around the same point in the life span of the religion and we are seeing similar conflicts. 1. Yes, I agree that if that was your point, then of course I was going to be confused. That's because Christianity & Islam at that point in time their religious "life spans" were on two different trajectories. Christianity was in the process of splintering apart in the 1400s into different sub-faiths, and the crisis in faith was focused inward. Islam, on the other hand, has its crisis focused outward onto other religions. 2. Regardless, your point is a meaningless point. We all live during the same time period. "Religious time periods" are inconsequential. What is consequential is that U.S. citizens died because some idiots were offended over a stupid movie... |
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amino1
A better forum warrior
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Post by amino1 on Sept 21, 2012 23:04:44 GMT 2
I would also like to contest the definition set forth by Sam that the Bible is merely a Christian's rule book. Very little in it is dedicated to the actual explication of rules and guidelines. There are significant portions (Leviticus comes to mind) but these are to interpreted in the unique historical context of that period, as I think many of those very specific ordnances would be summarily dismissed by yourself and most Christians as having limited direct relevance.
I would contend that it is instead to be regarded as a collection of written documents of singular historical, cultural, and literary significance. This is not to say there is no meaning inherent in it; on the contrary I think much can be learned from its study, and so I would encourage interested parties to do so, yourself included.
Note that the quote you select I have already paraphrased as containing the essence of the Christian message. The irony is that you are advocating resisting evil, and you are advocating demonization of a select group of perceived "enemies" as it were.
From what I can tell, you are indeed an advocate of fear. Or do you think it's wise to always stress the danger inherent in every situation, in the name of spreading "awareness"?
There's an interesting concept in Psychology called the Pygmalion Effect. If you're familiar with discordianism you might know the underlying principle as the Law of Fives. You find confirmation for your beliefs if you look hard enough.
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Post by guest on Sept 21, 2012 23:41:40 GMT 2
Ok Milkman, I will give you, your day in court. This passage is why Jews, for example, were better off in Muslim nations and empires until the latter half of the 20th century. As "people of the book," like Christians, they could simply pay a levy and continue worshiping as they pleased. In Christian Europe, on the other hand, from the Middle Ages well into the 20th century Jews were subject to cyclical pogroms and confinement to ghettos, culminating in the holocaust 60 years ago or so. We live in the modern era. In the modern era, Israel has a sacred place amongst our pantheon of allies, and enjoys vast support from many Christians. In the modern era that passage is used by fundamentalist wahhabi Muslims to justify Jihad. "Anti-colonialist tendencies" refers to the practices of those who believe we must apologize for actions. It is what our President does. It is a policy of appeasement, that believes that the U.S. is always in the wrong, when it intervenes. Mostly though I was just ribbing East Wind for the heck of it. The "anti-colonialist" rhetoric espoused by folks like Dinesh D'Souza is silly. I agree with this, we have found some common ground. I am glad to see that you too agree that in the modern era, that Islam is a bigger problem. And we're back to your Christian phobia. Mubarak was a dear American ally whom we let flail in the wind, and we are paying the price for our apologizing. Regardless, none of this has anything to do with my general point that Christians and Muslims aren't on equal ground in the modern era, and that Islam poses a bigger problem. A point that you stated you agree with, earlier in your post. Sabra & Shatila - Jewish, not Christian. Bombings in Northern Ireland - Politically motivated not Christianity motivated. That was essentially Christian on Christian violence, remember. LRA - About as Christian as Islam. If you knew anything about Christianity, which you don't since you are trying to link this group to Christianity, you would know that the only savior is Jesus, not Joseph *cruisering* Kony. Serbs/Albanians - Not motivated by Christianity. KKK - If you want to bring up these guys, I could bring up the Armenian genocide too. You would lose on the scale of numbers. Closer to home Milkman: Given the amount of Jew bashing in your posts, should I assume you were enthusiastic about the Holocaust too? That has about the same basis in fact as your paragraph above. Christianity's relationship to the examples you pointed above is extremely limited. In the cases where there could be some minute overlap, the overlap isn't due to anything in the Scriptures, and the ill deeds lack basis in actual Scripture. This is different than Islam. |
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Post by milkman on Sept 22, 2012 0:18:40 GMT 2
Okay I'm just going to let your accusations of "jew bashing" and holocaust-love slide because they're so obviously baseless and stupid. I mean you realize I live in Brooklyn right? It's actually really, really stunningly ironic that, at least in the US, militant Christians and the ultra-right are the quickest to call others fascists and antisemites. I mean, guest, face it, you're racist as *cruiser*!
I really don't know what you mean by a religion being a "problem." You seem to insinuate that both Christianity and Islam are problems, with Christianity being a minor one and Islam being a major one. Do you mean problem as in problematic to integrate into a secular state or nation? Though to be honest I don't think you think Christianity is a problem at all, I think you'd be perfectly happy with an ultra-nationalist Christian theocracy type deal. Am I wrong? What do you think needs to be done about Islam if it is so inherently "problematic?"
Also don't understand what you mean by apologizing... in a literal sense? Could you give an example of such an apology? I'm asking because, to me, with Guantanamo still open, the war in Afghanistan raging, interventions in Libya, the military buildup in the Pacific, and so on, I'm not seeing many apologies. I know this "apologizing" thing is a major Right Wing talking point but it seems pretty rhetorical. It seems that you just mean he's being diplomatic.
Sabria & Shatila was a massacre perpetrated by Phalangist Christian militias against Palestinian refugees. The Israelis are only culpable in this insofar as they didn't intervene.
Bombings in Northern Ireland were mostly perpetrated by the catholic IRA, protestant UVF, and other splinter militias. The battle is embroiled in politics but is also a religious conflict, much like the 30 Years War and many other European wars. There is no solid line between political and religious conflict/warfare as the situation in Egypt and elsewhere clearly demonstrates.
The LRA is about as Christian relative to your brand of Christianity as Al Qaeda is to Sufism in Morocco, for example. You continue to ignore my point about the diversity of Islamic beliefs and practices, but I really think this is because you know nothing about this issue. For instance did you know that the Tuareg nomads of the Western Sahara veil men rather than woman, as protection against the Djinn of the desert? Don't you find this moderately interesting, maybe more tintilatting than the Glen Beckish charicature? I realize that it is absurd to lump the LRA's Christianity with, say, Catholicism, but I stated this as a reductio ad absurdum to show how ridiculous your notions of a monolithic Islam are.
The Serbs are Easter Orthodox and the Albanians are (not very practicing) Muslim. The massacre was motivated by nationalism, conflict over resources AND religion. Kosovo is important to Serbs because it is the site of their defeat at the hand of the Muslim Ottoman Turks. Again, no solid line between politics and religion.
Bring up the Armenian Genocide, it was terrible, how does this negate the fact that the KKK are Christian extremists? I also wonder if you consider the Armenian Genocide another of symptom of the "problem" of Islam, considering the Turkish state was, during that time, under control of the militantly secularist military? I think this feeds into your idea that any act that involves Muslims, however tangentially, is somehow a symptom of Islam's inherent evil.
Your last statement about "real" Christians is absurd. You realize that KKK members consider themselves the "real" Christians right? You realize that both Al Qaeda and moderate Muslims like Cremisi consider themselves the "real" Muslims right? The insistence that one is a "real" Christian or "real" Muslim at the expense of other Christians and Muslims is exactly the sort of thing that UVF militants that bomb a Catholic school or the Al Queda in the Maghreb fighters who deface Sufi shrines in Mali so fervently believe. There is no "real" religion, only different permutations and political articulations.
Also, isn't there also some irony in the fact that you and STB seem to emphasize the absolute innocence and pacifism of "real" Christianity (which apparently has only existed for 50 years or so) as a reason to "unapologetically" wage war on various countries and ethnic groups? Not that this rhetorical ploy is new or abnormal, it has a long history to be sure.
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Post by honkey on Sept 22, 2012 0:59:17 GMT 2
Guest-Thank you for proving me correct (will find a couple sentences that he can spin).
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Post by guest on Sept 22, 2012 2:48:45 GMT 2
Okay I'm just going to let your accusations of "jew bashing" and holocaust-love slide because they're so obviously baseless and stupid. I mean you realize I live in Brooklyn right? It's actually really, really stunningly ironic that, at least in the US, militant Christians and the ultra-right are the quickest to call others fascists and antisemites. I mean, guest, face it, you're racist as *cruiser*! So it's ok for you to make presumptions about me, but it's not ok for me to call you out on it. Of course, you don't support Hitler, just like I don't support abortion clinic bombers. It's rather worrisome that you would think I would support abortion clinic bombers despite me never stating as such. It's a worrisome trend with leftist authors. You always tend to condescend at those of us who don't share your views. As long as we continue with this fusion of patriotic Christianity that also exalts the free market, I'm ok with it. I wasn't ok with the socialist type of Christianity that was popular during the FDR era. |
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Post by milkman on Sept 22, 2012 3:20:22 GMT 2
Yes, all these conflicts have politico-economic underpinnings. And so do those in the middle east, involving Islamic peoples. Your argument that Muslims are somehow robots programmed by the Koran whereas Christians act according to their politico-economic interests unless they're being good is, well, stupid. You can analyze the Bible (which one?) and the Koran purely as texts, maybe interesting to some theologian but not useful for much else, or you can analyze the intertwined flux of political, economic, and religious affairs. Yes, the Lebanese Christians were angry about the death of their leader etc. Just like the Taliban, Columbian FARC, or American Public becomes incensed when their leading figures is assassinated. In any such case there are (a) economic interests (b) immediate political causes, such as the death or dramatic gesture of a respected figure (c) cultural contexts (d) ideologies (such as religion) used to rationalize the action, and many other factors. An aside: Purely textual readings of the Bible/Koran has little bearing on political or ethical action. Despite what evangelical Christians such as yourself may think, the Bible was written well after Jesus' death and was itself a product of the politics of the early church, not to mention that its relative importance and meaning has changed along with society and history. This does not make it more or less true, it is simply the reality of things. You also ignore the effect of all the other producers of ideology. All the television commercials and pamphlets about "Christian Values" are as important to understanding your form of Christianity as the Hadith, for example, is to understanding, say, Shi'i Islam, or the hagiographies of saints or the scholarship of Saint Augustine are to Catholics, or as youtube videos and martyr posters are to understanding Hamas. Moreover, in most strains of Islam scholarship is as important as the ordinary text. It is not enough just to quote the vague passages of the Koran verbatim, or the Bible for that matter, you must also understand and read the interpreters who have shaped the dominant readings of these texts. I'm bored of this argument, honestly. Once I've been absurdly accused of being a nazi I can tell the possibility for intellectual exchange have been pretty much closed off (I'm not sure if it was ever possible). You tried to cover yoourself by saying that I accused you of being for bombing abortion clinics or the kkk, when I was merely listing these as examples of Christian extremism. And listen, I think its far from obvious that you wouldn't be for such actions considering you just agreed that you'd be all for ultra-nationalist theocracy. I'm sure that you'll exult in this as a "victory" since your strategy is basically to argue endlessly with halfbaked arguments and psychological projections until the opponent just gives up. It's become a war of attrition I'm too busy for. I'm flattered that you called me a "leftist author" though, sexy! I'll end with one last comment though: However, because the LRA does this, it is not a Christian faith. This is not a matter of intolerance as you would think it is. This is a matter of the fact that you do not understand Christianity, yet you presume to judge what is Christian and what is not Christian. Can any of our students see the irony in guest's indignation here? Hmm? |
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Post by fuckyougrim on Sept 22, 2012 3:21:56 GMT 2
seeker is successfully trolling liberals yet again
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Post by milkman on Sept 22, 2012 3:47:16 GMT 2
I'm not a liberal, I'm an anarchist, thanks. And who is trolling whom my friend?
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Post by guest on Sept 22, 2012 4:24:25 GMT 2
Yes, all these conflicts have politico-economic underpinnings. And so do those in the middle east, involving Islamic peoples. Your argument that Muslims are somehow robots programmed by the Koran whereas Christians act according to their politico-economic interests unless they're being good is, well, stupid. You can analyze the Bible (which one?) and the Koran purely as texts, maybe interesting to some theologian but not useful for much else, or you can analyze the intertwined flux of political, economic, and religious affairs. Yes, the Lebanese Christians were angry about the death of their leader etc. Just like the Taliban, Columbian FARC, or American Public becomes incensed when their leading figures is assassinated. In any such case there are (a) economic interests (b) immediate political causes, such as the death or dramatic gesture of a respected figure (c) cultural contexts (d) ideologies (such as religion) used to rationalize the action, and many other factors. The point is that yes, Christians are better equipped for the modern world than modern Islam. To argue that it is any different than the above revolves around twisting your words around and around, and doing what you did - ascribing nationalistic motives to general Christianity. If you are going to ascribe religious motives to an action, like you are doing - then you need to underpin it with a textual basis. This is something many of the extremist Muslim groups do with great relish, and they do it well. The fact that you think I actually called you a Nazi author, rather than using it as an example to point out your innate hypocrisy makes me wonder why I continued the argument. Yet, I must be vigilant in my arguments. You want to bring a cultural war to the United States. I desire no such thing. My victory is already complete and total. The businessmen have won. There is no irony. I do not judge either group as wholly horrible. I just rightfully acknowledge one religion has adapted better to the modern world than the other religion. |
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homer
Forum elite
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Post by homer on Sept 22, 2012 5:35:47 GMT 2
I have a boner
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Post by guest on Sept 22, 2012 7:10:05 GMT 2
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Post by samthebutcher on Sept 23, 2012 19:59:52 GMT 2
This turned out to be ridiculously long. I hope that you will read it though. I tried harder to clarify some of my previous statements and to also address some of the statements other people made. Back on the subject of Christians and Muslims, I thought I had made the differences clear in my previous post. It appears that I didn’t make it clear for at least some people. It is obvious it not clear to you all from the follow up post from some of you with the Straw man argument of “Look at all the bad things Christians have done.†Those examples have absolutely zero bearing on this discussion at all. This is why. Those people ARE NOT Christians! So to try to use those examples of bad things Christians have done is a totally false argument. You can’t blame Christians for the actions of non-Christians and that is exactly what some of you are doing. Just because someone claims to be a Christian or whatever they claim to be does not make it so. I thought I had made that obvious already but, since I didn’t, I will try to fix that. Whoever said that the Bible and the Koran is not the rulebook for the believers of each of those faiths is completely wrong. That is EXACTLY what they are. You could even look at them as recipes for what it takes to be a Christian or a Muslim. Each of those faiths believe they had a prophet or divine person come to Earth (Jesus, Mohammad) and teach and set an example of what a person needs to do in order to be a Christian or a Muslim. They laid out the rules or you could even say the recipe that a Christian or Muslim is to live by if they are to be a Christian or a Muslim. It is that simple. Jesus told people what they need to do if they want to be Christian he then lived by his own teachings. Mohammad did the same for Muslims. I hope that is clear now. I’ll give an analogy. You have a chef (Jesus or Mohammad) he is going to teach you how to make†Savior Brand†chocolate chip cookies. He gives you the exact recipe to follow if you want to make “Savior Brand†chocolate chip cookies. If you don’t follow the recipe exactly and to a T you haven’t made “Savior Brand†chocolate chip cookies. You have made something else. He gives you the recipe then he makes a batch for you to show and give you an example on how to make “Savior Brand†chocolate chip cookies. Just as it is believed that Jesus and Mohammad came to Earth told people what they MUST do EXACTLY to be a Christian or Muslim. They both then lived by their own teachings to show you how. If you don’t live by and follow their teachings you ARE NOT a Christian or a Muslim. Just as if you didn’t follow the recipe exactly you didn’t make “Savior Brand†chocolate chip cookies you made something else. Just like Coca Cola, if the recipe for Coca Cola is not followed precisely it is not Coca Cola. You can call it Coca Cola if you want to but, if you didn’t follow the recipe just right, it’s not Coca Cola and, anyone that knows what real Coca Cola is supposed to taste like knows it’s not. I hope that I have made this point obvious to everyone now. To be a Christian you must follow the teachings and example given by Jesus. To be a Muslim you must follow the teachings and examples given by Mohammad. You can’t pick and chose what you want to follow you can’t leave things out or add things in. You MUST follow the teachings of Jesus precisely to be a Christian. You MUST follow the teachings of Mohammad precisely if you want to be a Muslim. To do ANYTHING different than what Jesus taught is to NOT be a Christian. To do ANYTHING different from what Mohammad taught is to NOT be a Muslim. Just like if you didn’t follow the recipe exactly you didn’t make “Savior Brand†cookies or you didn’t make Coca Cola. You made something else plain and simple. Now let’s look at the “recipes†or teachings people MUST follow to be a Christian or a Muslim. Remember any deviation is to make a person NOT a Christian or NOT a Muslim. They can call themselves Christian or Muslim but unless they adhere strictly to the teachings of Jesus or Mohammad they are neither. Christianity: The Bible was written over a period of nearly 2000 years by different people, all believed to be divinely inspired by God. The Old Testament, to explain in broad terms is a book of History and Prophecy. In the New Testament Jesus comes to Earth to teach people what they MUST do in order to become a Christian. He corrects old beliefs people had and gives them the rules or laws they must follow. Im not going to rewrite the Gospels of the Bible, but I will give some quotes from Jesus that give a clear understanding of how a person must live and do in order to be a Christian. The main message Jesus taught was Love and Forgiveness to ALL. Jesus himself followed exactly all of his teachings. He did everything he said we must do and didn’t do anything he said we should not do. Jesus did not kill, lie, commit adultery, covet, etc. He did love everyone, forgave those who wronged him, followed all the Ten Commandments etc. The most important thing Jesus said we must do is to Love. Love God and everyone. The basis of Christianity is Love and Peace. MATTHEW 22:35-40 (KJV
Jesus was asked which is the greatest commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.He taught to even Love your enemies. "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:43-45 KJV)
Forgive those who do wrong against you. "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." (Matthew 6:12 KJV)
"And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
"But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses." (Mark 11:25-26 KJV)
He tells us to disregard offenses against us and to turn the other cheek.
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39 KJV)He tells us to be like the Good Samaritan. He points out that it's easy to love people who love us and who do good to us. But we are called to love everybody else, also. LUKE 6:27-38 (KJV)
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners,to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest:for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not,and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over,shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.Jesus also commanded us to keep to his word to follow what he has commanded and taught us to do in order to have salvation and be a Christian. If you DO NOT follow his Word and teachings you ARE NOT a Christian. That includes following the Ten Commandments. John 14:23,24;
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.
Matthew 7:28;
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock; and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand; and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
And Jesus said, "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love" (John 15:10).
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother:
6. Thou shalt not murder.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covetEverything I have quoted/posted are the key ingredients to being a Christian. As Jesus said himself you must follow and obey his Word in order to be a Christian and gain salvation. If someone does not follow his teachings they are not a Christian and God will tell them he never even knew them. What all of this means is than anyone doing the horrible things some of you have pointed out ARE NOT Christians. Even if they claim to be they ARE NOT. They may call themselves Christians but it doesn’t make it so. Therefore you cannot legitimately say “Look at all the horrible things Christians have done.†That is because you are giving examples of non-Christian and blaming Christian for the actions of non-Christians. Real Christians would never do any of those horrible things you have pointed out that people have done in the name of Christianity. The people that did those things were not and are not Christians. They are something else entirely and just label themselves as Christians. Just like if you didn’t follow the recipe for Coca Cola precisely it wouldn’t be Coca Cola even if you called it that. I really hope that I have been able to make this clear to everyone that took the time to read it. What I have posted is what a real and true Christian must always strive to live by. Also something I think everyone can agree on is, if everyone who called themselves Christians really were Christians and followed the teachings of Jesus as he said they should it would be truly wonderful for the whole World. Now I’ll go through the same thing with Islam. The revelation of Quran by God to Prophet Mohamed was through the Angel Gabriel and started in year 610 AD and was completed by year 632. It wasn’t written down at the time. The word Quran actually means recitation. The Quran was revealed over the course of 22 years from God (Allah) to the Angel Gabriel then to Mohammad who would then give the recitals to other people. Some people did begin to write the recital down after some time. The written recital is referred to as the “scripture†in Arabic mus-haf. The number one thing in Islam is to submit. The word Islam means to submit. The main message of Islam is submission. Muslim are to submit to Allah and they are commanded by Allah to force others to submit to the will of Allah also. Here are some of the things that Mohammad taught that a person MUST do to become a Muslim. If a person does not follow all of the teachings of Mohammad given to him from Allah that person IS NOT a Muslim. They can call themselves a Muslim but they ARE NOT. How a Muslim MUST treat non-Muslim (unbelievers) Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."(People of the Book refers to Christians and Jews the Book is the Bible. Jizya is a tax on non-Muslims) Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."(More on taxing non-believers. If they pay the tax leave them alone. This was part of why the Barbary Pirates would ransom and extort money from America) Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."
Quran (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"
Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves
Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
Qur'an (5:80) - "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide." Those Muslims who befriend unbelievers will abide in hell.These are just a few teachings from the Quran on how a Muslim should be towards non-Muslims. Slavery many Muslims still practice slavery today. As Allah permits it. Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"
Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."
Qur'an (24:32) - "And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..
Qur'an (2:178) - "O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female.(This line speaks to Slavery and also Retaliation not Forgiveness to your enemy) Women Qur'an (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye
Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife
Qur'an (66:5) - "Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins" A disobedient wife can be replaced.These are some of the many teachings that a person MUST do and follow if they are to be a Muslim. If you are a person that claims to be a Muslim and you do not follow these teaching you are not a Muslim. Just like if you don’t follow the recipe for Coca Cola precisely you wont make Coca Cola. Here are a few point by point comparisons between the teachings of Jesus and Mohammad. Remember to NOT follow these teachings and examples by Jesus will make a person NOT A CHRISTIAN. Also to NOT follow the teachings and examples by Mohammad with make a person NOT A MUSLIM. Mohammad said: Allah hates those who don't accept Islam. (Qur'an 30:4, 3:32, 22:38)Jesus said: God loves everyone. (John 3:16)Mohammad said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah"(Muslim 1:33)Jesus said: "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword."(Matthew 26:52)Mohammad: Stoned women for adultery.(Muslim 4206)Jesus said: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."(John 8:7)Mohammad: Permitted stealing from unbelievers.(Bukhari 44:668, Ibn Ishaq 764)Jesus said: "Thou shalt not steal."(Matthew 19:18)
Mohammad: Owned and traded slaves.(Sahih Muslim 3901)Jesus: Neither owned nor traded slaves Mohammad: Beheaded 800 Jewish men and boys.(Sahih Muslim 4390)Jesus: Beheaded/killed no one.Mohammad: Murdered those who insulted him.(Bukhari 56:369, 4:241)Jesus: Preached forgiveness.(Matthew 18:21-22, 5:38)Mohammad: "If then anyone transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him"(Qur'an 2:194)Jesus: "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."(Matthew 5:39)Mohammad: Jihad in the way of Allah elevates one's position in Paradise by a hundred fold.(Muslim 4645) Jesus: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called Sons of God"(Matthew 5:9)Mohammad: Married 13 wives and kept sex slaves.(Bukhari 5:268, Qur'an 33:50)Jesus: Was celibate.Mohammad: Slept with a 9-year-old child.(Sahih Muslim 3309, Bukhari 58:236)Jesus: Did not have sex with children.Mohammad: "O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you
and let them find in you hardness."(Qur'an 9:123)Jesus: "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."(Matthew 5:5)This post has become long to epic levels. I sure do hope that people can now see the differences between Islam and Christianity, and what the followers of Christianity must do in order to be a Christian and what the followers of Islam must do to a Muslim. Also the effect on the World that comes from or would be based on how closely people follow each religion. My contention is that if more people followed Christianity precisely as Jesus taught and did, thus being real Christians the World would be a much better place. If more people followed Islam precisely as Mohammad taught and also did, thus being real Muslims. I think the World would be much worse. The number of people in the World that are following Islam much more closely to what it is to be a real Muslim is increasing and the number of people that are following Christianity to what it is to be a real Christian is diminishing. The violence and chaos in the World is a reflection of that. Here are some links to learn more about the differences between Jesus and Mohammad: www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Jesus-Muhammad.htm |
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