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Post by SAUCEBOSS FIT on Sept 5, 2012 18:24:35 GMT 2
they don't care if there are 2 players or 200 players. And perhaps thats part of the problem. |
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Post by adrenaline on Sept 5, 2012 18:44:16 GMT 2
i don't really see a problem... no one really cares about a ranking system. most people just want a place to play, and mnet works just as well as any place would.
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shinco
A better forum warrior
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Post by shinco on Sept 5, 2012 18:56:07 GMT 2
If I recall the only reason playmyth went up was because UndeadEd (Corpse) went on a worse rage than Om ever did and forced most of the people off of the server.
For what myth is at this point, marius is perfectly fine.
shinco
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Post by punkuser on Sept 5, 2012 20:28:59 GMT 2
I think staying with mariusnet is ideal - got no issues with the admin, stability, etc. there and as has been noted, they pay the bills and don't ask for anything in return which you're not going to really find elsewhere.
The only issue I see going forward is there are a lot of useful features that we could add that require updates to the metaserver code as well as the client. Since PPE is mostly hands off these days, we might reach a point where we need to decide between using a different metaserver that could support new features vs. staying with mariusnet. That's the *only* situation I can see, and the ideal would of course be mariusnet adding the features directly.
And ranking is not one of those features... ranking is basically irrelevant with a community this size; it's never going to mean anything interesting so don't waste any time implementing it.
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Post by StoneCold on Sept 5, 2012 21:43:11 GMT 2
I'll continue this for Sauce Boss.
Punk, that's primarily the reason why it's brought up, is because there is a lack of motivation from "ownership" to keep innovating, adding new features, maintain certain aspects. Sure, it's stable as of now, but certain things are broken, with no real direction in sight.
Now, I know there is some chatter within ProjectMagma about adding new functionality with the client, that can be acheived with updates to the metaserver code, but unless someone at Mariusnet can actively work with them, there's no way to enhance the metaserver<->client interactivity.
I won't post specific features that were thrown around, since I don't know what is feasible or is being seriously considered, but it would be nice if the other half of the Myth "development" team (mariusnet team), seemed more proactive about it.
I understand there is work, family, friends, etc, etc. If they feel like they don't have time to maintain, but can provide infrastructure, why not try to seek members within the community to help? And, at what point will Project Magma say "we really want to implement XYZ features, so we will need changes to the metaserver". I just think Project Magma will resort to saying "Oh well, no one wants to maintain MNet, so we just live with what we have".
I just think to keep a 14 year old game alive, all aspects of the community need to be motivated to do so. Project Magma has done a shitload of work, and I'm not alone when I say I'm grateful for their MANY hours of hard work. Members of the community do their part to try and keep the userbase active with tournaments, leagues, myth nights, etc.
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Post by punkuser on Sept 5, 2012 22:21:01 GMT 2
Now, I know there is some chatter within ProjectMagma about adding new functionality with the client, that can be acheived with updates to the metaserver code, but unless someone at Mariusnet can actively work with them, there's no way to enhance the metaserver<->client interactivity. Right, that chatter is from me primarily heh  My goal is to add features that make competitive multiplayer/tournament play better in general. I've actually already implemented a few things in 1.8 which are fairly awesome, but as you note, would require metaserver changes. I've contacted PPE and even offered to implement them in their code base, but as you note, it's pretty hands-off there status quo at the moment, so I do not expect much. I really do want to emphasize that that's the ideal though... get stuff implemented on the server we already all happily use. And, at what point will Project Magma say "we really want to implement XYZ features, so we will need changes to the metaserver". Well like I said, I've already implemented at least one feature that simply won't work/do anything without some metaserver updates in 1.8, and I do intend to add more based on it. i.e. I'm not letting the lack of updates on mariusnet stop me from implementing cool stuff but of course the question eventually comes down to this: at what point is there enough cool stuff supported that it would be worth using a newer metaserver, even perhaps just for tournaments? i.e. what's a "killer feature(s)" in the eyes of this community, or are there none? Anyways I'm totally willing to discuss stuff openly here in terms of what features people want to see and whether they are feasible, etc. Ultimately I'm trying to make tournaments in particular easier to run, play and experience for everyone, so there really isn't a better place to discuss it. For reference, in addition to massively improving the precision and accuracy of stats, the feature I've already added is the ability for the client to basically stream the replay to the metaserver (optionally or perhaps required in some rooms, like "tourney" rooms, etc) which would allow a number of things to be built on top of it: 1) Can download any films or film packs right from the metaserver web page. No more need to upload tourney films after the games. (Already done.) 2) Live spectating of in-progress matches (don't have to be "in" the game, can start viewing whenever, etc). Would allow live shoutcasting as well of course (next on my TODO list) 3) Multiplayer save/load (fairly low priority, but nice for coop and builds on the other features naturally) Then couple this with a web site that allows creating "tournaments", linking specific games played on the server to that structure and thus easily generating film packs, stats, etc. over the tournament/rounds/whatever. This is all pretty easy to do given the above support and I'm planning to prototype it. So is any of that compelling enough to consider using a different metaserver for (assuming we can't get anything done on mariusnet, which would be ideal)? Perhaps just for tourney play? Or maybe something other feature? I really don't know myself... I'm mostly implementing this stuff for fun and to have the option to use it down the road. I was really hoping we could get it implemented in mariusnet. |
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Post by fuckyougrim on Sept 5, 2012 22:53:27 GMT 2
Having a backup server is a really good idea, considering how many people were lost in the transfer from bungie.net to mariusnet
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harpo
Still just a thrall
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Post by harpo on Sept 5, 2012 23:12:56 GMT 2
I would be a huge fan of live spectating. Not sure how the multiplayer save game would work, but sounds interesting as well.
Thanks for all your hard work!
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Post by giantkillergeneral on Sept 6, 2012 14:01:59 GMT 2
it could be a potentially good idea. get it up and running and as new features are added people can slowly make the transition. it all depends on the new features though. why hasn't someone at magma set up their own server by now if their development is being hindered by mnet? I didn't even know that problem existed.
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Post by grim on Sept 6, 2012 14:28:53 GMT 2
I can see why it would actually be a good idea to get another metaserver. An active development/maintenance team would be an extremely good thing for the community as a whole. I also believe Gamer actually said he has a server of his own even and could maintain it. Blaming OM for creating a need for a new server is just nonsense though. People getting into trouble with OM are mostly the goobers that everyone considers annoying anyway. The vast majority of players never have had any real issues with OM. Not to mention that people will never like admins or say some admin was a good admin. Goobers won't like authority figures of any kind.
Creating a new server is just realistic or a feasible idea at this point. As people have pointed out, we lose players every time we switch servers. This is the case even when the other server went down completely and we only had one server left. Just imagine how bad the situtation would be with two ongoing servers at the same time.
Oh and having a working ranking system is a good thing. While as rank or stats in general have lost their meaning as an indicator of skill, it's still something nice to have. They give a sense of mini achievement when you gain visible ranks after each reset. This current marius ranking system is just dumb and confusing.
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Post by toxyn on Sept 6, 2012 14:35:56 GMT 2
Then couple this with a web site that allows creating "tournaments", linking specific games played on the server to that structure and thus easily generating film packs, stats, etc. over the tournament/rounds/whatever. This is all pretty easy to do given the above support and I'm planning to prototype it. Part of this project includes a system similar to this. Send me a PM if you would like more information, punkuser. I've sent emails to Marius staff inquiring about an API to do stuff like authenticate users, query statistics, etc. I was told there is no chance of it ever happening anytime soon due to lack of interest/free time. |
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Post by StoneCold on Sept 6, 2012 17:34:26 GMT 2
Just a quick thought, Punkuser.
A way that we might be able to get around the loss of users when a server migration happens is to implement an auto update feature of some kind. For example, the server hostname could be stored in an XML file on ProjectMagma's website (or a list even), and the client can fetch this hostname when a multiplayer session is initiated. However, I'm not sure if that hostname is loaded when the Myth client is loaded, but I don't think it would be too hard to change the logic to fetch this dynamically.
With a list-type XML file, a ping functionality could be added to the server dialog window similar to what you see in other games. A green indicator means online, a red one means offline. Myth could also try to auto-connect to other servers if the first server in the list is offline. It would allow not-so-savvy users to keep playing, and deters the need for users in the community to be aware of what server they need to move to. Although I do realize the other challenges involved (user databases, orders, etc, etc). Just would be a neat thing to have.
That said, I hope that Mariusnet ownership can find some time, or someone to help out in implementing new features.
I understand some people no longer have an interest in certain features such as a ranking system, but that isn't really an excuse to leave it as is if it's not being used as designed or abused. There are other people that would like to see a good system in place, and if such a system did exist, it would probably encourage others to use it, newbies and veterans alike.
Just my 2 cents.
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Post by punkuser on Sept 6, 2012 18:37:09 GMT 2
why hasn't someone at magma set up their own server by now if their development is being hindered by mnet? I didn't even know that problem existed. Yeah earlier this year I sort of wrote a new metaserver for messing around with and prototyping these new features. At the time I was just assuming I'd prove out a feature, then fire the code over to mariusnet to integrate but that doesn't seem to be the case. Obviously now there might be value in me making a somewhat more complete metaserver if people actually want to use it, but I'll tell you right now that I'm not going to bother with adding ranking, etc. to it. That said, it might be possible provide enough hooks to allow an associated web application to implement some of the missing functionality. Is there interest in using this server (i.e. I should work on making it more complete), or are there other servers that people have written and would prefer the new features be integrated into? We have the binary of mariusnet of course but that's not helpful in adding functionality. FWIW we've just been running this "test" server on and off on people's personal connections. It works fine so far but it's not "complete". If there's interest in making it complete we can start a new thread and I can tell you guys where it is in terms of state and we can work together on getting it all hooked up to a web server, etc. We'll obviously need to figure out hosting though. I also believe Gamer actually said he has a server of his own even and could maintain it. Is this something he has developed from scratch, or just an instance of the Bungie or Mariusnet code? The latter aren't really that useful since 1) the bungie code is too messy to update, hence why I wrote a new one and 2) we don't have the code to mariusnet, else we'd just update the server we use now. While as rank or stats in general have lost their meaning as an indicator of skill, it's still something nice to have. Stats are easy to keep, but a "ranking system" implies some sort of meaning. If it's just the progression of icons that is interesting those could always be related to something else, like tournament participation/placement/wins or similar (i.e. something with a bit more meaning these days and could encourage participation). Part of this project includes a system similar to this. Send me a PM if you would like more information, punkuser. Yeah let's get together on this. If we truly want to make this happen lets get the new metaserver I've written hooked up with a good web application or similar. I've done some preliminary work on this front but I don't really have a desire to run/pay for hosting for an ultimate solution so if you guys have a line of sight on that, let's make something happen, at least as a test ground/contingency plan. A way that we might be able to get around the loss of users when a server migration happens is to implement an auto update feature of some kind. For example, the server hostname could be stored in an XML file on ProjectMagma's website (or a list even), and the client can fetch this hostname when a multiplayer session is initiated. Right so we can already add "servers" easily to the list either in patches or separate downloads. There's no mechanism to determine if one is offline other than trying to connect to it of course, but it doesn't seem like that's a big problem if it ends up being more of a 1-time move. Plus I don't actually expect mariusnet to shut down, even if there's a hypothetical alternative option (and that's a good thing) with newer features and active development. Having stuff dynamically updated by checking PM.net or similar is nice in theory, but that'd put too much power/responsibility in the hands of whomever owns that "master" list and I'm sure that would create lots of bitching I think it's better just to continue including the metaserver patch files for any active metaserver in Myth patches, and if we need an "auto-update", add that for Myth itself (including those files). |
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Post by giantkillergeneral on Sept 6, 2012 19:00:20 GMT 2
Why doesn't PPE or whoever has it, give up the Mariusnet code? Clearly they have no interest in it anymore, and others are trying to build off of it. Why wouldn't they?
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Post by punkuser on Sept 6, 2012 19:10:48 GMT 2
Why doesn't PPE or whoever has it, give up the Mariusnet code? Clearly they have no interest in it anymore, and others are trying to build off of it. Why wouldn't they? I'm not sure, but if they were willing to allow us to update it then all these problems are much more easily solved. i.e. I could just add the features directly to MariusNet (no need for people to switch servers), we could add more tourney/stats features to the web site, etc. The only reason any of this duplication of effort is being done is on the assumption that they aren't willing to open up their code to us to help continue to develop. |
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