Opinions on new M2 attack option?

[par73]

Aug 8, 2012 18:27:14 GMT 2 myrk said:

I don't see anyone having the time in a fight to make a selection box around enemy units when you have to dodge with archers after every shot and control other units during the cooldown.

[headhunter]

Whatever your opinion, this is possibly the most interesting and worthwhile thread on this entire forum. I would love to see more tactic based conversations as well as discussion regarding future developments.

[samthebutcher]

GKG
"Sam you are on the right track with including a new tool to players, but this is not a good implementation of it in my opinion. I click way too fast to be bothered with using a box select on the enemy units I want to attack. That would slow most of the good players down waaaay too much, especially in an archer battle against another top player. So this implementation is sloppy I think. A better way to implement it would be to enable a different key that you hold while clicking similar to a ctrl click, but instead of attacking a specific point on the ground with ranged units, it would attack a random point within a small area on the ground. For melee units it would select attack all of the enemy units within that small area."

I hear what you are saying about it being waay to slow. I dont agree with that. I dont see much time difference between selecting your Bowmen and clicking on an enemy Bowmen (like it is now) vs Selecting your Bowmen holding a key (any key you wanted to set it to) and dragging the cursor across 2 or 3 enemy Bowmen. But it doesnt really matter if we agree on this or not. Like I said no one would HAVE to use it.

Do you use a "selection box" to select your own units? I do when I want a mix or only units from a certain part of the group. It is a lot easier than clicking each one individually.

I like your idea about ground attacking and having the Bowmen launch arrows in a random area around the spot you selected. I think it would be great and more realistic but, it could be included with what I am saying about using "selection boxes". It doesnt have to be one or the other. It would be like another "ground attack" option where mine is an enemy attack option. Also I have no idea how difficult that would be to implement. I imagine there would have to be additional logarithms added and other things. I know that the "selection boxes" would be easy to add. Because as I said before it isnt adding anything new it is just using existing things in new ways.

GKG
"Of course I will try not to use it but misclicks do happen in this game, and if this is going to introduce one more way I could make a misclick then i don't want any part of it. Also there are plenty of other ways you could introduce a sloppy implementation of this that screws up the way I play along with a lot of other top players. We move and click very fast and unintentional control mistakes do happen."

"You are still stuck on this box-select attack feature which is absolutely horrible. If you hold ctrl then do the select box then how is it going to know that you are trying to do a select box attack instead of a ctrl click attack? You would probably have to introduce some time delay which would be HORRIBLE. If you say that you have to do the box select before hitting ctrl well then this is still slow, tedious, and sloppy"

I have been saying to hold ctrl while dragging a "selection box" around the enemy units you wanted to target, but it could be ANY button. It could be something you change in preferences. So you could set it to a key you have NO chance of accidentally hitting. It could maybe even be turned off and on like other controls are. I have changed around a lot of my control keys. I dont us ctrl click to ground attack anyway. I use the right mouse button.

So you dont have to use it and could set it so there is no chance you accidentally would.

GKG
"This is why I, along with many others, do not like Magma. There is this HUGE disconnect between the competitive myth community who have the best knowledge for how this game should be played, and Magma development. Magma has no competitive players on it. When it comes to features effecting the combat of this game, you need to take the top players, pick their brains about it, and LISTEN TO THEM. You have hardly any idea what makes for good game play when talking about the combat of this game. All the bells and whistles of the game outside of the combat is all fine and dandy, you should just stick with that if you aren't going to listen to the people who are the actual experts on this stuff."

First Magma does a lot for Myth. Maybe in ways you dont see. Like all the additional map making tools. Which is a big deal. Plus all kinds of other stuff too many to list. Maybe somethings they have done people feel were bad but over all they have done a lot of great things for Myth.

You are saying "you" in your post it might be just nothing, but to be clear I have nothing to do with Magma. Except asking a lot of map making questions that they have been very generous with help.

Anyway, when I had this idea I suggested it at the Magma forums. Basically the answer I got was that it would be very easy to do. Also I was told before it would even be considered. I should ask at the MWC forums and it would depend on how players reacted especially competitive players. I pretty much got the idea that if 90% + DID NOT object they would think about it. They are very leery of making any changes they players would object to. They really do want people to be happy with their work.

GKG
"
Quite honestly, I don't think this feature adds much value to the game play, and is hardly worth the effort. I know you think you have some genius idea or something but it really isn't all that great one way or another. Even my suggestion has flaws as it is going to have archer arrows falling short of the target which might make it pretty ineffective. Ultimately only testing and getting the size of that area balanced correctly would tell. Would have to test how often misclicks may happen with it as well. Again, I think this is all a not-worth-while effort though. "

You may not feel it would have much game play value. I do and maybe others as well. It adds a huge amount of extra control. And it would be pretty simple to do so its not a lot of work and Magma would be the ones doing the work anyway.

As far as you idea it would be awesome for an additional "ground attack" option. I think what would work good would be if you had a group of Bowmen selected. Then clicked a spot on the ground using this option by holding down a key (any key you set it to). The spot you clicked on the ground would be like a center point. So you Bowmen could aim in relation to that point based on their position to the center of the formation or group of your Bowmen. So how ever far and in what position your Bowmen were to the center of the group that is where they would target in relation to the spot you "ground attacked". But like I said I dont know how hard that would be to implement.

SO based on the fact that the "selection box" would be 100% optional to use, and you could set the button to use it to anything in "preferences" so you couldnt accidentally hit it, if you didnt want to use it. It is only another option to players that would wish to use it, but have no effect what-so-ever on anyone that didnt. Do you still object to it being added?

[samthebutcher]

I want to explain it one more time so it is clear. I know I dont always explain things the best. So I'll keep it short.

Example Bowmen Vs Bowmen using this option:

You select your Bowmen. You hold down a key (whatever you set it to) You hold down your mouse button drag your cursor across which ever and how ever many enemy Bowmen you want. Which makes a "selection box" around them. You release your mouse button and the key. Those enemy Bowmen are selected. Your Bowmen now target those enemy Bowmen.

It would work the same for any and all units.

[giantkillergeneral]

no I don't object to it being added so long as the custom key mapping is in effect.

your suggestion for the additional attack ground option where they aim in relation to the formation is horrible. That would make it easier for people to aim, which makes the game closer to "auto-hit" games. We don't want to take the skill out of the aiming. Then everyone would just start using only that attack option since it would be overpowered and archer fights would suddenly become a lot shorter and easier. Forget that feature entirely, I don't think I would trust anyone to implement that and not screw it up.

[samthebutcher]

Aug 9, 2012 14:09:48 GMT 2 giantkillergeneral said:

no I don't object to it being added so long as the custom key mapping is in effect.

your suggestion for the additional attack ground option where they aim in relation to the formation is horrible. That would make it easier for people to aim, which makes the game closer to "auto-hit" games. We don't want to take the skill out of the aiming. Then everyone would just start using only that attack option since it would be overpowered and archer fights would suddenly become a lot shorter and easier. Forget that feature entirely, I don't think I would trust anyone to implement that and not screw it up.

On your first part I am happy that you feel that way.

On the second part I was building off what I thought was your idea. Which I thought sounded good as another way to "ground attack" with multiple Bowmen. Which I think would be more true to life, but on the other side it WOULD make dodging with a single Bowmen vs multiple Bowmen nearly impossible. So I agree with you that it WOULD take away from the game. It would be sort of like when you try to dodge an arrow, but the Bowmen that shot at you aim was off so you walk into the arrow. Where if you would have stayed still the other Bowmen would have missed. Except you would have a bunch of arrows landing all around you. Plus like I said that might be hard to code in.

Thanks GKG for your input on this. If there were to be any changes to Myth this is sort of, like you said, how it should be done. With discussion by the community. Especially the more competitive and active players

Sam

[drunken]

Sam, before you go tinkering around with ideas about new attacks why dont you balance out the bre-unor for once. Give them a root on cracks so they are actually useful and can heal the trow. It makes sense Lore-wise as well.

Secondly- fix the presets. I *cruisering* hate having to hold alt and 1 for example for 3 seconds instead of just pressing the 1 key instantly selecting like startcraft. I never use presets and GKG argument for my personal use of myth is kind of irrelevant for my situation.

You say it wont dumb down myth and your probally right but you will create a new style of game-play which would basicly damage the whole original structure myth has lasted this long. If your style was implemented I would be doing exactly what you are saying and not feel the challenge of having to fossik around to different archers individually.

Another Thing to Add to your Patch would be the Magma maps or something. I see no reason why the additional maps can not be included with the patch so that when a new player comes online they will have much more chance to open a game normally Red to them and have a chance for someone to explain that isn't afk in the lobby what to do for plugins.

When I say Plugin also as part of the patch. I mean not having to activate the map pack its already combined as part of the stock standard maps.

[samthebutcher]

Aug 9, 2012 14:55:39 GMT 2 drunken said:

Sam, before you go tinkering around with ideas about new attacks why dont you balance out the bre-unor for once. Give them a root on cracks so they are actually useful and can heal the trow. It makes sense Lore-wise as well.

Secondly- fix the presets. I *cruisering* hate having to hold alt and 1 for example for 3 seconds instead of just pressing the 1 key instantly selecting like startcraft. I never use presets and GKG argument for my personal use of myth is kind of irrelevant for my situation.

You say it wont dumb down myth and your probally right but you will create a new style of game-play which would basicly damage the whole original structure myth has lasted this long. If your style was implemented I would be doing exactly what you are saying and not feel the challenge of having to fossik around to different archers individually.

Another Thing to Add to your Patch would be the Magma maps or something. I see no reason why the additional maps can not be included with the patch so that when a new player comes online they will have much more chance to open a game normally Red to them and have a chance for someone to explain that isn't afk in the lobby what to do for plugins.

When I say Plugin also as part of the patch. I mean not having to activate the map pack its already combined as part of the stock standard maps.

Yea Drunken I'm not associated with Magma in any way. So I cant make changes. I commented on that a few post back and about what would need to happen for my idea to be added.

Here is what I said

"You are saying "you" in your post it might be just nothing, but to be clear I have nothing to do with Magma. Except asking a lot of map making questions that they have been very generous with help.

Anyway, when I had this idea I suggested it at the Magma forums. Basically the answer I got was that it would be very easy to do. Also I was told before it would even be considered. I should ask at the MWC forums and it would depend on how players reacted especially competitive players. I pretty much got the idea that if 90% + DID NOT object they would think about it. They are very leery of making any changes they players would object to. They really do want people to be happy with their work."




About what you said on presets. The reason that you have to hold 2 keys instead of just a number key is that the number keys are for formations. The game has to have a way to know the difference between if you want to set a formation or call up a preset. Using the alt key and a number key would be pretty difficult. You know you can change that in preferences right? Just FWY I use the ` to call up presets.

What you are saying about it creating a new style of game play IS true, to a certain amount. But definitely not in a negative way and, it certainly wouldnt damage anything at all. Plus a little bit of something new would probably be good. It would be a new tool a new control option. It would give players new game play options to try and explore. Instead of using the same options and controls that players have been using for years. Also it wouldnt be some major game element change. It wouldnt be a change in unit behavior or game physics or anything like that. Just a little extra unit control. Some people say they wouldnt even use it anyway and view it as a disadvantage to those that would.

Your other suggestions for game changes ask over at Magma. I THINK for them their considerations for changes are, amount of effort vs the benefits and will there be a negative reaction from the community. I think the second IS most important to them. It may be other things as well. I am just going by what I feel from the reactions I have gotten from them before. So I would say keep those things in mind when you ask them and they give your their answer.

[iron]

Aug 9, 2012 2:01:07 GMT 2 samthebutcher said:

GKG said:

GKG: This is why I, along with many others, do not like Magma. There is this HUGE disconnect between the competitive myth community who have the best knowledge for how this game should be played, and Magma development. Magma has no competitive players on it. When it comes to features effecting the combat of this game, you need to take the top players, pick their brains about it, and LISTEN TO THEM. You have hardly any idea what makes for good game play when talking about the combat of this game. All the bells and whistles of the game outside of the combat is all fine and dandy, you should just stick with that if you aren't going to listen to the people who are the actual experts on this stuff.

...

You are saying "you" in your post it might be just nothing, but to be clear I have nothing to do with Magma. Except asking a lot of map making questions that they have been very generous with help.

Just to confirm, Sam has nothing to do with Magma & this feature is not something anyone in Magma has suggested or is considering. No need for panties to get knotted over that.

Anyway, when I had this idea I suggested it at the Magma forums. Basically the answer I got was that it would be very easy to do.

Not quite - I was under the impression that it'd just be a different key combination to make arcs shoot a volley at a group instead of their normal attack that concentrates on the selected target. Technically _that_ change would be easy, but the whole selection box thing would not. GKG is absolutely correct in pointing out the host of difficulties it could introduce.

Anyway, as I said when you raised the idea on the Tain forums, making archers have a way of targetting multiple enemies may be possible but is it wise? From this discussion I'm not seeing a groundswell of people wanting it, hence right now its not something I'd like to see added.

Just my 2c fwiw, and I retired from working on the Myth code years ago so that 2c isn't worth much

[falcon]

Yo not to pause the debate, but magma ain't putting new functionalities to myth for shitttt.

[pogue]

I think GKG should just do a new update of myth himself getting rid of archers.

[punkuser]

Aug 8, 2012 16:45:09 GMT 2 giantkillergeneral said:

This is why I, along with many others, do not like Magma. There is this HUGE disconnect between the competitive myth community who have the best knowledge for how this game should be played, and Magma development. Magma has no competitive players on it. When it comes to features effecting the combat of this game, you need to take the top players, pick their brains about it, and LISTEN TO THEM.

Where were you GKG last year when I made several special builds to test various pathfinding "fixes" that you guys were asking for? I'm pretty sure the thread is still there in last year's MWC forums if you want to go read up. Can't speak to the far past, but you can at least admit that there has been reasonable interaction (and no real gameplay changes) for several years at least.

As this thread demonstrates, it's not like everyone here agrees on stuff anyways. If people want stuff changed at least get in agreement among themselves first, then I'm quite confident that it can be made to happen.

Lastly, I'm not in magma, but I do work on the game and I recall beating about half of you folks in the FFA tourney last year I'll not the best myther ever but I think it'd be hard to call me "not competitive" with any reasonable definition of the term. Once I get decent internet again I'll be back on playing regularly.

Trash talk aside, I think the "attack ground in formation" thing is far more interesting than what is being suggested here. Even more tactically interesting is having units automatically stagger their first so they don't shoot in volleys, but still focus one unit. That said, that definitely removes micro that you otherwise do, so I don't think it's necessarily a good addition.

And yeah the way myth chooses which units to go into which slots of the formation has always been busted. There are some potential ways to improve this but of course this will affect gameplay. If everyone can agree that it's worth testing though we can probably look at implementing some test builds with different options.

[punkuser]

Aug 9, 2012 14:55:39 GMT 2 drunken said:

Secondly- fix the presets. I *cruisering* hate having to hold alt and 1 for example for 3 seconds instead of just pressing the 1 key instantly selecting like startcraft. I never use presets and GKG argument for my personal use of myth is kind of irrelevant for my situation.

There is an "alternate presets" option in 1.8 for this purpose. When enabled it changes it so that you press (not hold) ALT+# to set, # to recall and F then # (do not have to hold F) to set formation. ALT and F can be bound to be whatever you want normally of course.

I've been using this alternate mode and it works pretty well. I tend to change formations less than recall presets so it's a good to make that the simpler option.

[giantkillergeneral]

i have no interest in testing pathfinding, I'm sure some others did. I would help test something I found interesting.

And I don't know what you are talking about a lack of agreement in this thread. The agreement is no1 really likes this feature.

Maybe I should replace "competitive" player with "top skilled"

[pogue]