Opinions on new M2 attack option?

[giantkillergeneral]

LOL as if i am going to read all that crap

im not arguing with you anymore sam, just copy and paste your last page-long post a few more times like you've been doing for the last 8 pages of this thread

[dantski]

EXAMPLES:

Here is an example I gave. I know it is long but PLEASE READ it and tell me how this wouldnt ever be useful to you. Or how it would dumb things down and make it easier for noobs. You would still do just as many clicks as fast as you always have, just more efficient use of your clicks. Speed would be JUST as important.


"Here is what I said
"For example you are fighting someone. With the current setup:

You are engaging his Bowmen with yours. You are shooting one at a time (as that is the way it works) Maybe your opponent has 3 weak Bowmen that need about 2 hits each to kill. So instead of picking them off 1 at a time. You would like to take them out at the same time. Ok with the current set up you could select 3 of your Bowmen 1 at a time and an enemy Bowmen for each of them 1 at a time. Thats 6 clicks. Now you are fast and maybe you could pull this off. You might even be able to dodge arrows with a remaining Bowmen you are so fast.

Compare that same fight with my idea added.
Your engaging his Bowmen shooting 1 at a time. You see the 3 weak Bowmen you want to take out. You select 3 of your Bowmen. Quickly drag the cursor through the 3 enemy Bowmen you want to target. Thats it your Bowmen are now attacking them. That would be so much faster. So with that extra time you could flank with a ghol. Or anything else. You now have more attack options more room for tactics because time isnt being wasted with repetitive clicking.

Your superior speed is still going to be an advantage to you. You can just focus your speed in more productive ways. Like flanking or anything else that a slower player couldnt do.

Strategically you know what you want to do, attack those 3 Bowmen and Flank with a Ghol, but your abilities are being limited by slower controls. Make the control easier and and faster and you can better meet your abilities. "

AND I SAID
"in that example I gave.
Standard way:
You have 6 clicks. Click 1 of your Bowmen - Click an Enemy Bowmen -Click 1 of your Bowmen- Click an Enemy Bowmen -Click 1 of your Bowmen-Click an Enemy Bowmen.

New way:
Compare that to selecting 3 of your Bowmen at the same time (with Presets or a standard "selection box" however). Then running your cursor across 3 enemy Bowmen. Thats it. That has got to be 4x faster. For the same result. So now that you accomplished that so much faster by cutting out a bunch of repetitive clicking. You can use you speed for better things.

It doesnt matter how fast you are. This would allow you to make moves or attacks faster by eliminating a bunch of unnecessary clicking just to do a simple task. Now you can do MORE stuff, apply more tactics. Make even more attacks at once. Your speed IS JUST as important its just used more efficiently. This will let you do even more attacks or whatever in the same amount of time. You would be able to accomplish more than before. Therefore you could play even better than you do now.

Basically it is like this. If you can do X amount of stuff in a certain amount of time. You would be able to do X+Y amount of stuff now. Since you are removing a lot of repetitive clicking. "

There IS NO DUMBING down. Nothing making it easier for noobs. It just makes things more efficient. It DOES NOT lessen the number of clicks or how fast you need to make them. It allows you to do MORE stuff with the same number of clicks and same amount of time. The top and the fastest players still have an advantage. The top players will be able to do even more in a given amount of time than they do now. It would free you up from some repetitive clicking to use those same clicks in better ways, to controlling even more units than you do now in the same time and same clicks.

If you can currently make A clicks in B time and command C units.

You would be able to make A clicks in B time and command C+D units.

How is that not better for everyone? Especially top players?

I would be totally fine with this being an option for players just because I don't believe it would improve 99% off players play having access to this. We both have 6 archers and you're focusing your attacks on 3 of mine? Fine! I still have to dodge the exact same as I would if you were attacking one, also if you get hits you're less likely to kill with 2 arrows in one place than you are with 6. This option is strong if your opponent isn't dodging and you can maximise your efficiency in how many volleys it takes to kill your opponent, but vs a skilled opponent I doubt it will make much difference which is why I am not against it.

One of the reasons I have for fire arrows not working the same way is because I have plenty of experience with myth 3 fire arrows and how they worked. In myth 3 a fire arrow upon impact would immediately spread out fairly randomly into a cluster of small fires, so if you fired 3-4 fire arrows you could virtually guarantee kills vs weaker units just because the fire would cover a large area all at once and be too effective. Now myth 2 fire doesn't work quite the same so it wouldn't be as strong with your proposed change, but it would still make it stronger than it is currently and like most people here I'm generally opposed to gameplay changes if I can't see an obvious benefit.

[samthebutcher]

Hey Dantski or anyone else.

I made a small Plugin Bowmen VS Bowmen that the enemy Bowmen can target individual units and also multiple units. Like what I have been talking about. In case anyone wants to test it out and see how it works.

Just a few things about the Plugin.

I just scripted enough to test the concept. So there is no End Game you will just have to push Esc.

Also I just scripted it for a heads up fight. So I drew a line across the battle zone. If you cross that or do a flank from the side the script isnt set up for that. Just fight it heads up like most Bowmen duals are anyway.

It is a Single Player map.

It is on Killing Grounds. I didnt change the name or anything. So when you load the Plugin it will say Killing Grounds. On the list of levels.

Timid through to Normal is 6 vs 6
Heroic is 6 vs 8
Legendary is 6 vs 10

Also this is just a little bit scripted AI (more is possible with Fear and Loathing but this is enough to test it). So it isnt going to be as good as most real players. But it should give you an idea of what a real player can do especially a good player. With the same ability to target multiple targets. A good player should be able to do way better than this AI can.

It is kind of random so try it a few times. Some matches are easier or harder than others.

So anyone that tries it let me know what you think.
Thanks

You can get it here. Bowmen Test is the Plugin name.

thebutchersmaps.weebly.com/

[waywardone]

Why solo? You've been asking a dedicated multi crowd. Drop us a multi plug and I'm sure we'll have feedback. You need to learn the lesson of "just do it and deal with the critics later".

People that are good at something rarely want that something to change. The challenge of Myth comes from other players, not the game, thus the resistance is stiffer than if this were some pop-a-mole fps where it's 99% twitch.

p.s. Why is this getting asked now instead of, oh i dunno, at the start of mwc when there were 10x players here?

[samthebutcher]

Aug 12, 2012 7:26:10 GMT 2 waywardone said:

Why solo? You've been asking a dedicated multi crowd. Drop us a multi plug and I'm sure we'll have feedback. You need to learn the lesson of "just do it and deal with the critics later".

People that are good at something rarely want that something to change. The challenge of Myth comes from other players, not the game, thus the resistance is stiffer than if this were some pop-a-mole fps where it's 99% twitch.

p.s. Why is this getting asked now instead of, oh i dunno, at the start of mwc when there were 10x players here?

I cant make a multi plug that allows the players Bowmen to select multiple targets. It can only be done the the units the game controls.

Maybe if there was enough interest Magma would release a Beta some people could test out. I would be happy with just being able to select multiple targets with Bowmen. Let the "selection boxes" go for now. Judging by the improvement of the AI Bowmen having the option to select single or multiple targets I think it would be worth it. What ever factor the AI is improved by should be the same factor for ALL players. Try out the Plug you will see the AI Bowmen are harder than normal. Most of the time as it is random.

I hadnt thought of the idea at the beginning of MWC, but yea that would have been the best time to ask.

[iron]

Of course you can make a multi plug. Just erase everything in your local, fire up Fear, open the "bowman" monsters tag, go into Flags, click "Use Extended" then "Shift-Click Targets Group". Do the same for bowman (flameless) for snowy maps.

Then create a plugin called "Bowmen Multi Target". This can be activated on any map & used in multiplayer. Players can shift-click to target an enemy group with their arcs, or normal click to target individual units. Yes, it also means that you can shift-click after hitting T, dispersing flame arrows far & wide, but its just a test of the basic idea.

If this is something the player community really wants (minus the flame arrow spamming) then it'd be childs play to add in an update, but there's no way it would or should happen without near-unanimity of the experienced player group & until/unless that was evident then it shouldn't even be considered by Magma.

[waywardone]

Fire arrows aside, we've really only talked about how this is either redundant or superfluous, but if there's a way to EXPAND gameplay instead of just providing an alternative of existing play, that's what multi testing would show. Obviously neither StB nor the critics can see if such a thing exists yet. It might be a monumental waste of time, or it might require making this type of archer a completely new unit.

[punkuser]

Aug 10, 2012 20:17:01 GMT 2 samthebutcher said:

Myrk
"And as for how melee got dumbed down, you do know that magma buffed the melee AI a while back so that just clicking in melee fights is no longer instant death against someone who micros their melee and uses gesture click right?"

Can you point out the changelog/version where this happened?

[samthebutcher]

Aug 12, 2012 15:37:23 GMT 2 iron said:

Of course you can make a multi plug. Just erase everything in your local, fire up Fear, open the "bowman" monsters tag, go into Flags, click "Use Extended" then "Shift-Click Targets Group". Do the same for bowman (flameless) for snowy maps.

Then create a plugin called "Bowmen Multi Target". This can be activated on any map & used in multiplayer. Players can shift-click to target an enemy group with their arcs, or normal click to target individual units. Yes, it also means that you can shift-click after hitting T, dispersing flame arrows far & wide, but its just a test of the basic idea.

If this is something the player community really wants (minus the flame arrow spamming) then it'd be childs play to add in an update, but there's no way it would or should happen without near-unanimity of the experienced player group & until/unless that was evident then it shouldn't even be considered by Magma.

That is awesome Iron. I had no idea I could do it that way. I will work on it today. Just something simple on Killing Grounds (since its open with nice level ground). And I could do that pretty quick. From the plug I made where the AI had Group Attack. I think it would be a nice option, but we'll see.

Thanks

Ill have a Plug ready soon. Just 6 vs 6 Bowmen on Killing Grounds.

I thought a little more on what you said. If I just change the Bowmen it will change all the Bowmen on all the maps? So would the Plugin JUST be the changed Bowmen and when it is loaded it changes all the Bowmen on all maps? Is that what you are saying?

In other words I wouldnt have to make a new map with those modified Bowmen on there for the Plugin?

[iron]

You don't have to have a map - forget proving grounds etc. Just make the change I described in that post to the bowman monster tags, nothing else. Then when you apply the plugin you can play whatever map you like (as long as it has bowmen) and they'll be able to attack groups of enemies.

[samthebutcher]

Aug 12, 2012 23:45:58 GMT 2 iron said:

You don't have to have a map - forget proving grounds etc. Just make the change I described in that post to the bowman monster tags, nothing else. Then when you apply the plugin you can play whatever map you like (as long as it has bowmen) and they'll be able to attack groups of enemies.

Cool Iron I got it. I never knew you could make a plug with just units and no map. I also saw on there "double click selects by monster type" That doesnt seem to be working.

Thanks

[samthebutcher]

Here is the Plugin that Iron suggested. The Bowmen can target multiple enemies. Hold shift and click an enemy unit. It selects all nearby units not just of a type. I had that set but I'm not sure if it works with a Plugin. Plus you can multi target with Flames. As Iron said that could taken out. Plus it could select multiple units of a type. If you want to test the concept use this Plugin it will work on all the maps and give all the Bowmen the ability to multi target.

Multiple Target Bowmen

thebutchersmaps.weebly.com/

[homer]

how did we get to 11 pages.

[myrk]

Aug 12, 2012 20:32:03 GMT 2 punkuser said:

Aug 10, 2012 20:17:01 GMT 2 samthebutcher said:

Myrk
"And as for how melee got dumbed down, you do know that magma buffed the melee AI a while back so that just clicking in melee fights is no longer instant death against someone who micros their melee and uses gesture click right?"

Can you point out the changelog/version where this happened?

I don't remember what version it was, it was probably 1.4 or 1.5

[pyro]

Aug 13, 2012 18:28:05 GMT 2 myrk said:

I don't remember what version it was, it was probably 1.4 or 1.5

As you can see from the 1.4.1 changelog found here, that was a 1.4.0 change.

Keep in mind 1.5.0 was a fresh start from 1.3.0 code with some 1.4.x stuff ported over, which is why you can't watch 1.4.x films unless you have the right 1.4.x build to match the film. Some of the melee changes had even been reverted in following 1.4.x versions. So that stuff is gone.



Sam, the "double click selects by monster type" setting is for selecting your own units, not for selecting targets. If you had different units that look similar, like a regular bowman and a modified bowman that uses a different "monster" tag and you double click on one it would select both types unless that setting was enabled.