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Post by samthebutcher on Aug 7, 2012 1:12:34 GMT 2
I wanted to get some opinions about a new attack option or feature for M2, and I thought that if it received a positive reaction from a majority of the community the developers at Magma could possibly include it in a future update. I know there are a lot of people that don't like changes to the game but, keep an open mind because I think that this would be a nice improvement.
Basically what it would be would be the ability to use a "selection box" to choose enemy units to attack. There would still be the normal way just an added way. This would give players addition attack options, more unit control and additional tactics that
could be used, basically giving players another tool to work with. Since the level of control is one of the things that makes Myth so good having more control should make it even better. Also many people have been playing Myth for years and many have pretty much maxed out the games potential. This new feature
would open up a whole new level of control,basically expanding Myths potential and opening new skill level possibilities to explore. While also bringing something to give the game something new and fresh.
This tool would have beneficial effects and improvements on both melee and artillery.
With Bowmen for example under the current setup your Bowmen will focus all of their firepower on a single enemy unit. With the new setup you would have the option to basically launch a volley
of arrows. For instance in a Bowmen duel of 5 vs 5 instead of selecting your 5 Bowmen and then only being able to target 1 enemy Bowmen you could launch a volley of arrows with each of your Bowmen firing at each enemy Bowmen. Which is actually more realistic. You could do different combinations of attacks. You could make you first attack focus on 1 enemy Bowmen then your next attack could send a volley of arrow at each of the enemy Bowmen. Your next attack you could have 3 of your left side Bowmen fire at 2 of the enemies right side Bowmen, while your 2 remaining Bowmen focus their fire on a single enemy Bowmen. Basically you could have unlimited combinations of attacks available. The potential is huge. The level of skill that could be expanded would be great. Giving people that thought "I wish there was more I can do I have basically maxed out the potential of the game." A means to take their skills to a new level.
Bowmen vs melee would also have improvements. You would be able to send a volley of arrows into a group of melee, instead of targeting a single unit. Flame arrows would also be improved, you would have the additional option of spreading out your flame arrows to different targets.
For melee you would also gain additional attack options and benefits. First instead of only being able to select a group
of units of one type in a mixed group of enemy units, you would be able to attack a section of the enemy group regardless of unit type. Another benefit would be that it would help avoid the issue where melee units when sent to attack another group of units will sometimes circle around to the back of the group while ignoring closer units that are attacking them. They would attack enemies only in the section you selected then fight as normal. Now you could use a "selection box" to attack for instance the front line of a mixed melee group. Or with this setup you could direct your units to focus their attack on one side of an enemy formation. Sort of like a tactical flank, instead of your melee spreading out through the whole line of enemy units. You would be able to concentrate your melee attacks. Which is more realistic to an actual battle. While still
being able to micro managing individual units in a melee fight. Plus you would still be able to do all attacks the same way you always have.
These are just some examples of game play improvements and I am sure that you get the idea and can see the additional control possibilities and how it has the potential of taking your game to a new level. It would make the game more realistic and give Myth a
shot of newness. Also it would be something that you didn't have to use, you could play your game the same way you have always, or you could use a new tool and expand your Myth skills It would be up to you.
So could you post your opinions on this? I know that this additional attack option wouldn't be very difficult to code into the game. It depends a lot on the reaction of the community, but I think the additional control, skill potential, realism, and overall potential would be very cool, and help Myth evolve and give it a new freshness. I know I am like really trying to sell this idea but, I have thought about it for awhile and I cant think of any downsides to it, basically it gives players more of something that makes Myth so good, without taking anything away.
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homer
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Post by homer on Aug 7, 2012 3:47:55 GMT 2
do it.
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Post by giantkillergeneral on Aug 7, 2012 5:00:55 GMT 2
i don't think this is that great of a feature. I doubt I would personally ever use it. That being said, some people might like it, who knows.
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Post by samthebutcher on Aug 7, 2012 14:48:46 GMT 2
i don't think this is that great of a feature. I doubt I would personally ever use it. That being said, some people might like it, who knows. Would you have a problem with it being implemented? There have been quite a few people that have viewed this post. I would really like to get your opinions. If it is "you like it" "you wouldnt care either way" or "you wouldnt want it to be implemented at all" If there is enough positive response there could be a decent chance that it would be added. I think that since it wouldnt hurt and could only give players more control options that it would be a good thing, but it all depends on what the community thinks about it. So please post your thoughts on it. Thanks Sam |
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Post by drunken on Aug 7, 2012 15:17:11 GMT 2
isnt that the whole point of myth. To micromanage your units. To make it more lazy for other players would defeat the purpose of having skill level in micromanagement and be more about Macro with as many arrow shots as you can do.
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Post by samthebutcher on Aug 7, 2012 16:03:59 GMT 2
isnt that the whole point of myth. To micromanage your units. To make it more lazy for other players would defeat the purpose of having skill level in micromanagement and be more about Macro with as many arrow shots as you can do. Thanks for leaving your opinion drunken. I appreciate it. But I do disagree with you, and maybe I can show you why. I think it would introduce more room for addition skill. Reason I say this is that it gives players more control basically an additional tool. Which would allow for more micro managing and more skill. To go the other way would be to take control away from players and have the AI do more. Like if you could only control groups of units instead of individual units. That leaves less room for skill. This wouldnt simplify attacks it would make it possible to do more complicated attack combos. Basically you could attack the same as always, but you would have additional attack options. The more attack options that a player has the more skill they could employ using these different options. It wouldnt be as simple as select all enemy Bowmen and its an easy kill. Like the example I had above. Your first attack you could send a volley of arrows the next attack you could more focus on individual units and steadily keep changing it up. Remember your opponent could be also doing the same thing. If anything the person using more attack options and skillfully changing them up, would more likely beat a lazy person that just stuck to one attack style. The same thing would apply to melee units as well. Thanks again for leaving your opinion. Hopefully I have been able to maybe show you a different way to look at it and maybe change your mind. Sam |
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Post by adrenaline on Aug 7, 2012 16:10:40 GMT 2
i actually agree with Drunken... this would just further dumb down the micromanagement aspect of myth... much like the Caps Lock option did. but to be honest, I've been thinking about something like this for a long time (bowmen volley)... though a bit different in it's implementation. I'd rather see it done as a ctrl-click volley that launches arrows in accordance with the bowmen's formation... as opposed to box selecting a group of units. The issue is this is that it's great to have the option to ctrl-click attack one spot as well... perhaps it could be done as a ctrl-double click... that would actually make it a skill instead of a crutch.
As for the box-select attack with mellee... just no. Micro ability is what sets players apart. I very much disagree with this adding skill... What next... m2 autopilot? would be nice to keep somewhat of a learning curve in this game.
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Post by samthebutcher on Aug 7, 2012 16:35:38 GMT 2
i actually agree with Drunken... this would just further dumb down the micromanagement aspect of myth... much like the Caps Lock option did. but to be honest, I've been thinking about something like this for a long time (bowmen volley)... though a bit different in it's implementation. I'd rather see it done as a ctrl-click volley that launches arrows in accordance with the bowmen's formation... as opposed to box selecting a group of units. The issue is this is that it's great to have the option to ctrl-click attack one spot as well... perhaps it could be done as a ctrl-double click... that would actually make it a skill instead of a crutch. As for the box-select attack with mellee... just no. Micro ability is what sets players apart. I very much disagree with this adding skill... What next... m2 autopilot? would be nice to keep somewhat of a learning curve in this game. Thanks for leaving your thoughts on it. Could you explain how it would "dumb" things down? I really dont see that. Basically to me what you are saying is that the more control options a player has the less skill it takes. That would mean that if you could only control groups of units instead of individual control it would take more skill to win. Isn't the level of control that players have on Myth what allows for more skill to be used? So wouldnt giving players more control more options allow for more skill. It isnt like an auto kill. Its like everything else with the amount of control Myth has. The people that skillfully use the most tools (like presets, ground attacking etc) do better. With melle you would still have all the same attack options as always except now you would have additional one. Nothing would be taken away. You would just have more to work with. Always the more moving parts, tools, control options ect with anything the more skill it takes to employ them to the best potential. That is why professionals in any field always have the most and best tools at their disposal, and people that limit themselves usually dont excel to the same level. Can you show me how that isnt true? And I am open minded about it, but until someone can show otherwise I dont see it any differently. |
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Post by adrenaline on Aug 7, 2012 16:48:28 GMT 2
It isn't about amount of tools used... it's about click speed and accuracy. Your "one click" extra tool would eliminate X amount of clicks, which, in turn, simplifies micromanagement, hence takes less skill. It is a crutch for those without the click speed to efficiently micromanage melee. And you did not comment on my idea for a bowman ctrl-dbl-click volley. THAT is the only extra attack feature I'd want to see implemented in the future. The one other thing I'd love to see magma fix in the next release is the way units move into formation... needs to somehow be more intuitive. So often you move bows into a new line formation, and they do not go to their closest spot in the formation... one usually ends up walking from one end of the line to the other... like so:  Incredibly annoying. In fact, I will post something about this in at the magma forums. |
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Post by samthebutcher on Aug 7, 2012 17:38:46 GMT 2
It isn't about amount of tools used... it's about click speed and accuracy. Your "one click" extra tool would eliminate X amount of clicks, which, in turn, simplifies micromanagement, hence takes less skill. It is a crutch for those without the click speed to efficiently micromanage melee. And you did not comment on my idea for a bowman ctrl-dbl-click volley. THAT is the only extra attack feature I'd want to see implemented in the future. The one other thing I'd love to see magma fix in the next release is the way units move into formation... needs to somehow be more intuitive. So often you move bows into a new line formation, and they do not go to their closest spot in the formation... one usually ends up walking from one end of the line to the other... like so: Incredibly annoying. In fact, I will post something about this in at the magma forums. I hear what you are saying but I dont totally agree with you. I mean that respectively. I dont want to start a fight. If anything just a friendly debate. I think I get your point on the click speed accuracy part, but there is no one out there and I have tried it to basically no success, and I have never seen anyone successfully do. That is to have a line of say 5 Bowmen. Then be able to individually select each of your Bowmen and then individually select a single enemy bowmen for them while at the same time dodging arrows. It cant be done it doesnt matter how fast you can click. Anyway you said "my idea for a bowman ctrl-dbl-click volley. THAT is the only extra attack feature I'd want to see implemented in the future." I agree 100% it is more realistic and should have always been possible. (But that would go against what you said about X clicks targeting Bowmen for Bowmen.) You like the idea of a volley fire option. That is what this would allow you to do and everything else you have always been able to do. Plus both players would have the same tools to work with. So it would still come down to who used them the best and fastest. The player that can not only click fast and accurate but also change targets and attack methods quickly and make better tactical decisions on how and where to attack would have the advantage. For example: If in a Bowmen dual one player just used a "selection box" to send volleys of arrows vs the other player who instead would 1: Send a volley of arrows at each enemy Bowmen. 2: Quickly followed up by his 3 left Bowmen targeting the opponents 2 right Bowmen. While at the same time having his 2 remaining Bowmen both target an individual weak enemy Bowmen. 3: Quickly changing that to all 5 Bowmen attacking a single enemy Bowmen. 4: Then launching another volley. And so on in all sorts of combos. Clearly this still gives the advantage to speed and accuracy. More so. Plus the tactics involved in using the best combinations of attacks. It wouldnt eliminate X amount of clicks. It would allow you to use the same amount of clicks more effectively. It still comes down to who is faster more accurate and makes the best decisions. It just gives you more room to expand on those things. Finally going by what you are saying on this and the "capts lock" feature. You are also against "presets" and "double clicking" or using a "selection box" to select groups of you own units or being able to select groups of enemy units? Players should be able to only selecting units 1 at a time? The game should be narrowed down to who cold click the fastest? Strategy and tactics taking a distant 2nd to that? I dont mean that in a snarky way, but to follow that logic thats where it goes. Maybe you do feel that way and although I feel differently. You are entitled to your opinion and I'm no one to judge. Sam |
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Post by adrenaline on Aug 7, 2012 18:01:49 GMT 2
Finally going by what you are saying on this and the "capts lock" feature. You are also against "presets" and "double clicking" or using a "selection box" to select groups of you own units or being able to select groups of enemy units? Players should be able to only selecting units 1 at a time? Sam The caps lock feature is relatively new... whereas the rest of the shit you just mentioned is as old as the game. Don't be a f.ucking idiot. And there is a reason nobody tries to send 1 arrow at each bowman... it's pointless. People target one bowman at a time with an objective: kill that bowman fast. Myth is a numbers game, Sam. In the right hands, 6 bowman will most often beat 5 bowmen. Yes, I'll often have 3 target 1, and the other 3 target another one. Or 2/4 or whatever... the method you suggest is fairly pointless and incredibly easy to dodge. The only reason I'd EVER use that attack is if the enemy bowman are all red. For example: If in a Bowmen dual one player just used a "selection box" to send volleys of arrows vs the other player who instead would 1: Send a volley of arrows at each enemy Bowmen. 2: Quickly followed up by his 3 left Bowmen targeting the opponents 2 right Bowmen. While at the same time having his 2 remaining Bowmen both target an individual weak enemy Bowmen. 3: Quickly changing that to all 5 Bowmen attacking a single enemy Bowmen. 4: Then launching another volley. And so on in all sorts of combos. Clearly this still gives the advantage to speed and accuracy. More so. Plus the tactics involved in using the best combinations of attacks. It wouldnt eliminate X amount of clicks. It would allow you to use the same amount of clicks more effectively. It still comes down to who is faster more accurate and makes the best decisions. Sure, and while your so preoccupied *trying* to out-bow me... I'm busy puss-raping your dorf and cleaning up your mellee. What you suggest here is utterly ridiculous. While your attacking each of my bowmen simultaneously, I'm killing your's 1 by 1. Also, every time you dodge would cancel your previous attack commands and you'd just end up tripping over your own feet trying to redo them... meanwhile... the rest of your units are getting raped because you are too busy to control them. Seriously Sam... I'm not trying to be a dick here... but any decent player is going to rape you quickly if you try this shit. |
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Post by milkman on Aug 7, 2012 18:30:03 GMT 2
STB you should try ren's miff IV demo the arcs have several different ways of firing, one of which pretty much does what you're going for, only better.
Also anyone good with arcs can dodge and target with individual bows... actually 5 is a pretty low easy number of arcs to do this with. I mean, even if you're targeting one arc you're never gonna hit someone who can dodge if you dont stagger when your arcs fire.
Also, dren, I agree that the formation thing is fuckin annoying. I've noticed it happens more with very wide spaced custom formations. You know what else is annoying? When people pus my duff while I'm trying to arc duel GDI!!!
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Post by samthebutcher on Aug 7, 2012 18:38:20 GMT 2
Finally going by what you are saying on this and the "capts lock" feature. You are also against "presets" and "double clicking" or using a "selection box" to select groups of you own units or being able to select groups of enemy units? Players should be able to only selecting units 1 at a time? Sam The caps lock feature is relatively new... whereas the rest of the shit you just mentioned is as old as the game. Don't be a f.ucking idiot. And there is a reason nobody tries to send 1 arrow at each bowman... it's pointless. People target one bowman at a time with an objective: kill that bowman fast. Myth is a numbers game, Sam. In the right hands, 6 bowman will most often beat 5 bowmen. Yes, I'll often have 3 target 1, and the other 3 target another one. Or 2/4 or whatever... the method you suggest is fairly pointless and incredibly easy to dodge. The only reason I'd EVER use that attack is if the enemy bowman are all red. For example: If in a Bowmen dual one player just used a "selection box" to send volleys of arrows vs the other player who instead would 1: Send a volley of arrows at each enemy Bowmen. 2: Quickly followed up by his 3 left Bowmen targeting the opponents 2 right Bowmen. While at the same time having his 2 remaining Bowmen both target an individual weak enemy Bowmen. 3: Quickly changing that to all 5 Bowmen attacking a single enemy Bowmen. 4: Then launching another volley. And so on in all sorts of combos. Clearly this still gives the advantage to speed and accuracy. More so. Plus the tactics involved in using the best combinations of attacks. It wouldnt eliminate X amount of clicks. It would allow you to use the same amount of clicks more effectively. It still comes down to who is faster more accurate and makes the best decisions. Sure, and while your so preoccupied *trying* to out-bow me... I'm busy puss-raping your dorf and cleaning up your mellee. What you suggest here is utterly ridiculous. While your attacking each of my bowmen simultaneously, I'm killing your's 1 by 1. Also, every time you dodge would cancel your previous attack commands and you'd just end up tripping over your own feet trying to redo them... meanwhile... the rest of your units are getting raped because you are too busy to control them. Seriously Sam... I'm not trying to be a dick here... but any decent player is going to rape you quickly if you try this shit. Now I am confused. At first you are suggesting that the attack option I suggested would be an advantage for the less skilled. It would "dumb" down the microing aspects of the game and would be akin to having an auto-pilot. Now you are saying anyone using the attack options I suggested would be raped trying to use it. So which is it? If you go with your most recent opinion then you should welcome the new option, since you could easily rape anyone trying to use it by attacking the same way you normally do. Its not like you have to use it. If you dont nothing changes for you. It is just like if you want to use presets or not. So you would have nothing to lose with the additional attack options. You could only gain. Plus you said "I like the idea of a arrow volley option." (which this would give you) Then you said that it is best to concentrate your fire on a single target, and "the method you suggest is fairly pointless and incredibly easy to dodge. The only reason I'd EVER use that attack is if the enemy bowman are all red." (Aah but you could) You are all over the place and contradicting yourself. A newer option for missile units for 3rd party maps is to allow them to select multiple targets. I have a map partially finished that the Bowmen on it have this option checked. They will randomly change from focusing on one of the players Bowmen to basically a volley (like you and I both agree would be good) It makes them very difficult to beat. Reason is if they just focused on 1 units (as is standard) all you have to do is dodge with that 1 unit being aimed at. While your other Bowmen can keep firing uninterrupted. But when they change up and launch a volley 1 arrow at each of your Bowmen you have to move them all. This applies to PvP games as well. You see what I am saying? You are for and have wanted the ability to fire a volley of arrows. That is what this option would give you. Then you say you wouldnt want to use that ability except basically only in very limited circumstances. You say this attack method would "dumb" down the game take away the need for skill. Then you say that anyone that used this option would be raped. Only thing I am getting from this is that you are against any changes even the ones you think should be made. I'm confused. Sam Wait: Is it having the ability to use "selection boxes" for melee what you are against? |
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par73
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Post by par73 on Aug 7, 2012 18:41:44 GMT 2
I think I get your point on the click speed accuracy part, but there is no one out there and I have tried it to basically no success, and I have never seen anyone successfully do. That is to have a line of say 5 Bowmen. Then be able to individually select each of your Bowmen and then individually select a single enemy bowmen for them while at the same time dodging arrows. It cant be done it doesnt matter how fast you can click. this isn't necessarily true. it can be done, you just need to select an archer for each preset and accurately navigate and click each one. you don't always need to click for each archer, as they can auto, but you will need to reseslect an enemy after you dodge an arrow. another point is the enemy usually shoots at the same archer of yours over and over again until its dead, thus making dodging very easier. half the time i dodge one archer and let the others auto until my enemy starts attacking another archer of mine. This "algorithm for archers" is interesting and reminds me of the melee debate/conference shaister and will-n- had a few years back, but I feel it's unnecessary, especially when you can preset half your archers to one number, preset the other half to another number (and of course, you could split them up even more) and then micromanage each preset. the enemy will most likely continue to target one group of archers, allowing your other preset to be free of handling until they are threatened. |
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Post by giantkillergeneral on Aug 7, 2012 18:50:45 GMT 2
I wouldn't mind it being implemented as long as it didn't interfere with the usual way I play.
Btw everyone here is partly right and partly wrong.
Adren/drunken are incorrect about everything just about being a faster and more accurate clicker. If this was true then we should just get rid of presets all together because that is just removing a bunch of clicks it would take you to select your units properly. While we are at it we should get rid of formations because that is removing a bunch of clicks it would take to get your units in position how you want.
There are plenty of games that already do this in their combat, like starcraft and any FPS game where it is ALL about the APM. Myth is different because of the different decisions you can make. It is about speed, accuracy, AND smarts. Tools like presets and formations are good, adding complexity to the game and more intelligent decision-making to be made by players. Good tools make it easier to manage your units.
Sam you are on the right track with including a new tool to players, but this is not a good implementation of it in my opinion. I click way too fast to be bothered with using a box select on the enemy units I want to attack. That would slow most of the good players down waaaay too much, especially in an archer battle against another top player. So this implementation is sloppy I think. A better way to implement it would be to enable a different key that you hold while clicking similar to a ctrl click, but instead of attacking a specific point on the ground with ranged units, it would attack a random point within a small area on the ground. For melee units it would select attack all of the enemy units within that small area.
However it remains to be seen how this would affect the nature of archer fights. If it dumbs down archer fights too much where dodging is almost impossible then it may not be a good thing. My guess though is that this kind of feature would still be okay because you are increasing your chance of hitting something while decreasing the amount of damage you are likely to do. With control clicking a good ctrl click is going to hit multiple times, but harder to hit obviously. I think the key is to make the area large enough where there is still going to be some room to dodge it.
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